Welcome back to It Pays the Bills! Today’s guest is Zoe Morris, a director, writer, and lawyer. She and I actually met years ago during a day job, so it was great to sit down with her and chat about her writing process, her winding career, and her next projects.
A bit about Zoe:
Zoe trained as a theatre director graduating from her Masters at Mountview in 2018. She has an interest in shows that deal with mental health, science and has a passion for equal representation.
Since graduating she has changed her focus to writing. Together with her co- writer Meg McGrady she won the Stiles and Drewe award for ‘Vision, Voice and Potential’ in 2020 for their song Broken Guitar, was featured in BEAM 2021, and has been a finalist twice for the BYMT New Musical Theatre Award. Zoe and Meg’s show ‘The Phase’ was performed in London as part of the Vault Festival 2023 where it won an Offcom and was nominated for Show of the Week.
Zoe and Meg are working on a number of work in progress shows including ‘Worn Out’ which will be performed at the Manchester Lowry in August 2025.
In the condensed transcript below, I’ve italicized my questions and comments. Enjoy!
What is your creative pursuit and how'd you get into it?
Yeah, so I'm a book writer and lyricist. When I was a kid, I was very into acting, singing, dancing. I think that's where most theatre people start out. Then, I switched to directing when I was at university. I just got really involved in what it was like to kind of create that story as opposed to just be in it.
I went to Mountview for theatre directing, loved it and worked as a theatre director for a bit. When I was there I also did a lyricist course with BML. I met my co-writer Meg while I was there and just completely fell in love with all the songs we were creating.
We had a completely vague idea of a show called The Phase that Meg proposed to me. We posted a song we did on TikTok, and suddenly [it] had 400 000 views or something on that video. And suddenly some producers picked us up and everything kind of happened very fast and very conveniently.
Can you talk about those different facets that you kind of wanted to delve into or explore more [past acting]?
I've always loved singing. That was kind of my first love. I used to sing and make up songs when I was three, four years old. Not that they were good then. Like, I do not want those videos resurfacing.
In directing, I'm not even really sure how I kind of fell into it. It was when I was at university. When you're acting, you kind of have to apply for a show that happens to be on at the time. You don't really have control over what those shows are. You obviously have loads of control about how you portray your characters.
I was often a chorus member in older shows, which were things like Gilbert and Sullivan shows, which ended up being really one of my first director's gigs. A lot of the women in these shows are just like, let's go giggle. It's like, we're a group of giggly women. And I was like, I'm so done with doing this. And I kind of wanted to be in charge of more of those creative decisions and making those characters and giving actors the chance to be something more than that, even if they were written in the show as, hey, I'm a giggly woman. What can we create from that? And actually, what's their backstory? And can we create better images and stories on stage, even if they don't have lines?
So I kind of ended up, assistant [directing] for an amazing director. I think I applied to it kind of on a whim, but completely fell in love with that process and then got to direct HMS Pinafore. I directed that in my final year at university and used that as my pitch to apply to drama school. My favorite review was like, oh, she made these characters too feminist. And I was like, that's the best criticism I've had.
And then the switch to writing. I’ve always been into creative writing, like I was good at it at school. So again, kind of on a whim was like, heard about BML through Mountview and then was like, this sounds like a cool thing. I'll apply. Didn't actually think it would go anywhere, but it did. But I think I was directing for around a year in London after I graduated. I did a couple of devised pieces and I found that I just had so much more fun creating those stories from scratch than being given a story that already existed. And I think that kind of pushed me more into writing.
But also writing you can do at the same time as having a day job. If you're not being paid for directing or if it's a profit share, you can't actually necessarily get your money. So it was also kind of financially driven from some aspects.
What is your current day job and how did you get into that?
So I'm a lawyer. I work predominantly in finance doing renewable energy projects, mostly in Africa and the Middle East, but all over the world.
I kind of got into it, actually, I do say this, but I got into it, kind of fell into it. But I was on a train home from a show I'd just finished directing, had gone to the after party. It was all around the time of like Extinction Rebellion and all the, I think the UK had just set their net zero 2050 target. And I was like, I've loved theatre and I've loved working in it, but I have no money. And I could really use something that's gonna challenge me a bit academically. And I applied on a whim to law school on that train. on my way home and found out I was in, I think a couple of days later and then started literally two weeks later.
And originally my plan was like, part of it was like, oh, I'll be like an environmental lawyer. And then part of me was like, oh, I can maybe go and do theatre contracts. Like maybe it could be a good, like a separate part of my theatre career, to be doing producing but do the legal contracts. It didn't work out that way, but yeah.
Are you very passionate about environmental issues and environmentalism?
Yes, completely. I think that's what got me into it. And I still mostly work in renewable energy as most of what I do. If I hadn't gone into theatre initially after I graduated my first degree, I think I'd gone straight into some kind of climate change role. But I think I didn't know what that looked like.
Law just, it's a very standard career that people, it's one of those ones people know about, like doctor, lawyer. I didn't really have much experience with what was out there, so I think that kind of made sense to me as an option.
How did you feel about kind of potentially committing [so] much time into [law], something that you almost decided to do on a whim and kind of could take you away from that creative aspect of your life?
That's a good point, isn't it? I will say the GDL itself, I only went in three days a week, and I think one of those days, was only a half day. So at the time I was also working behind a bar in a theatre where I grew up. That's kind of while when I was starting writing as well and getting work, doing little bits of directing at the same time because I had that flexibility.
To be honest once I was doing the GDL, I really did fall in love with law. And part of me to be honest was quite desperate for some financial stability.
But I think also I wanted something that was very structured. I think i needed [a] day job that was gonna keep me structured so that I still had the time and the space in my brain to be creative.
What have your previous day jobs been, and any favorites or least favorites?
We were actually at sister companies, right?
Yes.
I worked with you at a climate change technology company, which was really fun and exciting because we were basically there from day one.
Worked in a theatre bar, everyone was so lovely. It wasn't just the bar, it was front of house as well. You kind of changed depending on your shift. You got to sit in with the shows quite a lot, so I got to watch a lot of theatre. And because it was a regional venue, it was actually two venues, because they were regional, everything changes so often, so you'll never sat watching the same show twice. So that was quite fun because I got to see everything from like orchestras, comedians, which was really cool, but was a bit tough on hours.
I briefly worked as a part-time, I don't even know how to describe it. Like science parties for children? It was like you had like a lab coat and some of it was parties, some of it was like events. And you basically did a series of experiments for the kids. That was because I had a science degree. So I can't even remember all the different things we did, but it was kind of showy science to get kids invested in it.
I did a lot of like little bitty part-time jobs. I did quite a few internships: like I did an internship at the BBC, I did an internship at a film company because I thought that maybe that was where I was going to go. I did an internship doing research scientific research in Peru in the Amazon. I did a lot of kind of bitty things trying to figure out what I wanted.
Did you ever find that you didn't really have a direction then? Because it sounds to me like you were always kind of searching and very open to every possibility.
I had no idea what I was doing. I actually, when I got the job that we worked on together, I think I'm pretty sure in that job interview, I got told, your CV looks like you don't know what you're doing with your life. And I was like, they still gave me the job.
Because I did my undergrad in biology. I was going to do a PhD. I had offers to do that and was ready to go do that and then randomly was like, hmm, no, I'm going to go to drama school and conveniently got in. And then was at drama school going, I'm going to be a director, definitely going to be a director and then worked in that for a bit and was like, no, I'm going to be a writer. Yeah, no, I'm going to work on climate change. I had phases.
It feels like there's good progress. I'm academically challenged every day and I work with some really great people, but it is a lot of hours. I think I'm happy kind of now where I've settled, but it did take me a very long time to - no, it was actually, I don't know, in the grand scheme of things, it probably wasn't that long. I graduated my undergrad when I was 21, graduated master's at 22, and then probably, I think I joined my law firm when I was like 24, I'm going to say. So it actually wasn't that long. We got there eventually.
How does your day job feed into, relate to, or oppose your creative pursuit?
To be honest, I think on the face of them, they probably oppose each other. My day job is very, very different. It's all about drafting contracts. It's very logical. There is some creativity in finding how you're going to draft something in a specific way, but it is kind of still following a certain wording or a certain formula.
But I do think that for me, they complement each other because I feel like I need both in my life. I always have. I was a bit of a nerd at school and did a lot of all the academic stuff plus was doing musicals from age 9 or 10 or whatever it was. I think the way my brain works, they complement each other because once I've spent my day exhausting my academic brain, I'll get on the tube and randomly have song lyrics to their own flow in my head. Often on the tube, often in the shower.
It kind of drains enough of that kind of more, I want to say anxious energy, but that kind of energy that is in my brain.
Can you talk about the balance of, again, you work long hours and fitting in the actual creative work?
Yeah. So I have this show on in August, and it’s been quite tight timelines and it has meant that weekends are for writing and then Monday to Friday is for my day job. Lawyers don't always rest, so sometimes that does seep into the weekends, which can be a bit tough. And also you want to be able to see your friends. I have family with birthdays around this time of year, that kind of thing.
So at the moment I'm doing a let's wake up at 8. What's my 8 till 10 a.m. slot. For example, this morning I wrote half a song and I came here to see you and then I'm going to see some friends. And then my evening slot again will be writing the second half of that song. It's very much like, how do I plan my time?
How long does it take you to write a song usually? Because of course you work with Meg [who writes the music].
It depends. Normally I'll write lyrics first and then Meg will write music to the lyrics. Sometimes they get really excited and they write the music first. Or they might even write some lyrics for the music. So actually the song I was writing this morning Meg's already written all of the music for. So I've been doing the lyrics to that, which is a little bit trickier. Yeah, it's so dependent.
I think it depends on how clear your vision is for that song. Meg goes, oh, this is great, writes the music in a couple hours. Sometimes I’ll spend ages figuring out what is the structure of the song, what do I actually need to say.
Do you have any advice for anyone looking to pursue a creative career?
You've got to find what works for you. There is a lot of inequality in creative careers. I know I'm completely privileged to be in the position I'm in, but even then didn't have what I know some of my friends have done had. Things like being able to live in London wasn't a thing that was feasible for me at the beginning.
I think you've got to find the balance that works for you because you can be as completely passionate and talented as you as you are. You can burn out really easily on a creative career but you can also do the opposite, which I definitely did for ages, where you just ignore it as long as you've got something else to sustain you.
I think that especially if you've got friends who've done incredibly well very fast, that can be very like, oh, why haven't I done that well? Or like kind of put you off from doing it. So mental well-being is really important and figuring out how to manage that.
I think I'm lucky that I'm not an actor because I think actors are so incredible with the amount of rejection they deal with constantly.
What is your creative dream?
To be honest, I think as a writer, I would love a show to be on the West End one day.
I think the shows Meg and I try to write are not like, I don't know, they're not all happy and shit. They might seem it. But all of them have some kind of message or we've tried to delve deeper into fundamentally what makes us human and who people are and identity.
So I think I'd like, I'd love something to be made on the West End, on the surface level, but iI'd also love people to take things away from our shows. And I think especially for like The Phase, for example, it's about trans rights, LGBT rights, what it’s like to be an LGBT teen in the UK. If people can feel some kind of acceptance or that can maybe help parents who are dealing with that, I think that would be really cool.
So, on the West End plus some, I'd like to make a difference somehow through something I write, which I think is probably what a lot of writers try to do somehow.
What is your dream day job?
You know what, I actually love my - it’s really sad to say. I would love if my day job came with nicer hours. I don't think my day job is the type of job that ever will come with nicer hours.
There could be a world in which, it could be four days a week working on my day job while I write on Fridays or something like that. I don't think it's really feasible with the type of work I do to not be on call quite regularly.
So I don't know what that future would look like, so I'll stick at what I'm currently doing or find a job that can be similar but with nicer hours.
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