Welcome back to It Pays the Bills! Today’s guests are Helen Cunningham and Nikoletta Soumelidis, our first-ever joint interviewees! We chatted about how they created their production company, 28&2 Productions, how they started theatre, and how they’re staying afloat.
A bit about Helen & Nikoletta:
Helen Cunningham attended The Oxford School of Drama. An actor and singer who now regularly writes and directs with an affinity for dark comedy. Over the last years, she has been an integral part of NewsRevue, the longest running comedy show in the world. She has been part of the cast three times, including the West End Transfer and has also been asked to direct twice — one of which was the highly coveted Christmas season. Other acting credits include performances at The Rose Theatre, Kingston and The Lowry, Salford.
Nikoletta Soumelidis is a Drama Centre trained actor, writer and director and likes all things “dark & twisty”. As an actor, her credits include performances at the National Theatre, the Bush Theatre, and the Old Vic. As a dramaturg and writer, she champions diverse and unique storytelling, having worked with companies such as Maktub Theatre, Magnetic Island Theatre and PlayDates UK. She’s also been one of Home Studio London’s resident directors for the last two years.
28&2 Productions champions multidisciplinary creatives (actor-writer-directors) and supports them with dramaturgical support, workshops and fully fledged productions on both stage and screen. Previous projects include sold-out shows such as "Curating" and "Sneak&Peek" as well as successful RnDs for "The Queen’s Arms" and "How To Say I Love You In The Dark". Their current play "Spent" is set to premiere at Baron’s Court Theatre in November.
28&2 Productions | Helen’s Instagram | Nikoletta’s Instagram | Spent @ Baron’s Court Theatre
In the condensed transcript below, I’ve italicized my questions and comments. Paid subscribers will receive a bonus edition next week, Perks of the Job. Enjoy!
I'm here with Nikoletta and Helen, who are my first team, that I'm ever interviewing together. So I'm going to let them introduce themselves very quickly and then we'll get right into it.
Nikoletta: I’m Nikoletta. I'm a producer, actor, writer, director. God, a disgusting long list of attributes. And yeah, half Austrian, half Greek. Kind of ended up here 10 years ago now. Been working with Helen for the past year on our little production company.
Helen: Yeah, I'm Helen. And as Nikoletta said, we do far too many things. Actor, writer, director, producer - hence why we teamed up and basically formed a production company. Because apart from producing, which we don't really enjoy, and we're quite vocal about that, we really enjoy doing everything. We really enjoy acting, writing, director.
And there's basically a bit of a trope in the industry that if you do more than one thing, it's because you're not good at it. Like you're spreading yourself too thin and we just have the opposite mindset. And so it worked really well to set up.
What would you say your creative pursuits are?
N: I think both of us started out as actors and then kind of started writing because we just, at least for me, I felt like I had a story to tell. And also I just wanted to write myself some work. It is just as simple as that.
And we're both part of a place called Home Studio London, which is a wonderful kind of actors playground. And for me, it was the case that the person running it just said, have you ever thought about directing? I think the way you look at stuff might lend itself to it. And that's how then I got into directing. And then, as it goes in our industry, when you do all the things, you then go, okay, let's put on shows and let's produce them ourselves.
H: Yeah, I think for me, it was the same order. I started off very much as an actor, actor-singer. I actually trained in musical theatre, which was a bit rogue. And then for me, it was especially during COVID, so my career was incredibly fledgling at that point and it felt like it had been stamped out before it even started.
So yeah, same as Nikoletta, I just started writing to basically give myself a guaranteed job at the end of it. And then for me, directing actually came through News Revue, which is a great comedy show.
It's the joy and the hardship of when you're doing kind of fringe or fledgling theatre is you've just got to wear all the hats. Producing just has to come into it because otherwise things just don't happen.
So what made you start the production company together?
H: I wrote my second play. So my second play, Curating, got offered to me in a slightly bizarre circumstance when I was offered a theatre for free, which never happens. So even though the script was not finished, I just thought, I can't say no to this.
And I'd only met Nikoletta by this point because she was helping assist teach at the class that I go to. And I actually just, I think I mentioned the play and she said she'd love to read it. And then before, whether I liked it or not, I had notes and wonderful feedback, which was such a joy slash she whipped me into shape as she always does. And it just made sense.
I think she kind of half offered it and I kind of half offered it her, the directorship at the same point. And then before we knew it, we kind of had what is now our accidental setup moving forward, which is that I wrote it and was in it and Nikoletta directed it.
We just gelled kind of creatively and professionally. Also we're just both as kind of driven and even the fact like we got back to each other instantly - like, it was a really reliable team which I think is not to be underestimated. So, once we'd finished that official first project together we just kind of thought we’d be daft to not continue this because there really seems to be something in this.
What are your current day jobs?
H: So, I do the the joyful world of children’s parties at the weekend. I’ve done them on and off for the last three years. My boss is very wonderful in that [there are] no questions asked when you need a time off for an acting job and you’ve got a job waiting for you at the end. There is a performative element to it and I genuinely think I wouldn't have gotten so much work - I did news revue as a performer once, then got invited back for the alumni Christmas run and then got invited back for the alumni West End run. And honestly, I think if you can hold a room of kids doing like silly comedy - the West End I'd take any day over that.
And then the other one is I've worked on and off in hospitality since I was 15. Currently, it's at a pub. Where, again, I'm quite lucky. I was brought in by a friend and therefore they offer me the flexibility that I need. I took a long time off of hospitality because it’s tiring. It's a lot. But then I suddenly realized that sometimes if I was working from home and writing and then doing kids parties, if I wasn't careful, my only social interaction that week was with five year olds.
So although it's a lot and it's a lot to juggle, I think when I when I do get the balance right, I don't mind it. And it does mean that I have the finances to then block time off for Nikoletta and I to get our work done.
N: But yeah, me, I basically sell everything under the sun. It started quite logically because I went to uni before I did drama school and I studied global sales and marketing. And it's all the same really.
So I first started working in offices and doing sales and marketing there. But then I kind of got into selling dog food with Butternut Box and they exclusively hire actors. I think all of them now exclusively hire actors for their sales jobs just because those actors are really good at listening and adapting and making really gross sales stuff sound semi interesting and engaging.
And started there, then kind of ended up at Freddy's Flowers, which just does the same thing. And then ended up at Nonna Tonda, which does the same thing. So, kind of jumping from company to company, selling different things until I can't do that anymore. And that's basically been it. It's been such a straightforward avenue, but just incredibly flexible. It's great because for any of these companies, you work three days a week. You can choose your days and hours, you make really decent money. As long as that works out and I don't reach my limit, I'll keep doing that.
I started doing field sales and literally going to events and speaking to people. It's now gone more into the direction where I call up people who want to cancel those wonderful subscriptions and convince them to stay. The great thing about that is I can just work from home or anywhere really so I actually could do a day for that company a day for that one. And since I can do it from home or anywhere, I literally just spent a month by the sea in Greece.
That's honestly been such a blessing and I can only recommend it to other creatives if they're happy enough to do all the gross selling. It offers so much flexibility, both in terms of time management and location.
What have your previous day jobs been?
H: Mine always have revolved around hospitality for a really long time, therefore the vastness of that has been quite hilarious. Like I started off working in a pub, my like local pub at the end of the road in my countryside, Lancashire village when I was 15.
And then I ended up working for a restaurant group in London where I very specifically got a job within their bistro, which was way more my vibe. They are the sister restaurant of a Michelin starred restaurant. And I genuinely accidentally, as in like, it was one of those things of, someone's called in sick, can you come and work here for a few days? And then kind of just very much got put on the rota and not moved. So very randomly, I ended up working in a Michelin-starred restaurant for about a year of my life.
There's an incredible level of professionalism in there, obviously. It's almost a little bit easier because there's such rigidity in it, there's no flexibility. And there's a real kind of like a militant kind of side to it, which is really fascinating to watch.
Also, what's quite nice is therefore like learning curve. I learned how to manage rooms and things age 21 which was a bit bonkers but also to kind of come full circle with that, I think you just learn to put your foot down and go nope, I'm not doing that, that's not in my pay grade, don't ask me to do that. Whereas when you're 21 and you're just happy making money you can quite often get sucked in, I think.
Do you have any favorites or least favorites out of those?
H: I’ve really enjoyed going back to pub life, if I'm really honest with you. I think pub life is way more fun. It's relaxed. You can chat away with people and you're still doing your job. Very selfishly, I [also] really enjoy it because my first ever play that I wrote, which we are revisiting next year, the whole thing's set in a pub and it's very much inspired by my time that I had there. So I kind of also really selfishly go to work and someone will say something absolutely hilarious or stupid and I will 100% write it down. And beer is just really expensive in London and I get it for free.
How about you, Nikoletta? Do you have any previous day jobs? And of those, do you have any favorites or least favorites?
N: It’s all kind of gone hand in hand. So, there were a couple of companies, there was an ad agency and then an IT company for which I did marketing. And funnily enough, it kind of has snowballed due to me having done those kind of jobs before. One of the companies I'm currently doing sales for brought me on as a sales consultant and wanting to enter the German market and doing some research and giving them insight on that.
Which funnily enough, we already had set up a company at that point, but it so confirmed that I just wanted to do something active because I think something that I find quite challenging with just doing loads of sales, it's really rewarding on the monetary front. But some people are really happy with if they've like no responsibility. I actually find it really difficult. I find it really hard if I'm just there and anyone could replace me at any point and it doesn't matter so really enjoyed having responsibility being able to make decisions being able to offer up an opinion.
That's one of the toughest things about being an actor, as well. You're so reliant on someone giving you a job and saying, yeah, come on. And then, as we all get older, regardless of how successful you are, at some point there will be a moment where, they're like, actually, thank you. We're on to the next generation. So anything that just kind of gives you power back where you can call the shots and actually can influence what direction your life is going in.
And that's something I just really enjoyed of being able to steer the ship in some direction or at least be able to help with the direction. I get really anxious if I feel just completely powerless and just sitting there waiting for the phone to ring.
How does your current day job feed into or oppose your creative pursuit?
N: It's so much just balancing plates and doing so many things at once. And I think a lot of it is people managing makes it sounds so like clinical, but just a lot of making sure that everyone's heard and you can bring everyone’s creative choices in while still being able to move a project forward. Honestly, just working in office and needing to maneuver the the political landscape of an office that's always such a specific thing. Having to talk to people who are way more senior than you, maybe even [those who] founded the company, and then be like, I've got ideas that are good.
I think that also then really helps when you then have to pitch a show and have to stand behind whatever project you're working on. Although I still find it much easier to champion Helen's stuff than my own. And she's a really great champion in mine.
And same with sales, I guess. It's just pitching, pitching, pitching, pitching. And just pitching some more. My mum once made a joke. She's like, I don't know if you just have a masochistic streak, but like you chose two professions that constantly deal with rejection, and people constantly tell you no. And you chose that in your creative life. And then as your day job, you chose the exact same thing.
And I'm like, I guess I'm a glutton for punishment.
H: I think the hospitality one's a funny one because at the moment it very much doesn't feed in, which I really, really enjoy. I love the separation.
And because I'm no longer like a manager or working at a really high end restaurant, I actually love the fact that I rock up there, I switch my brain off for eight hours and pull some pints and run around a room.
But actually before that, I think it hit me when I had my first directing job and then you're actually running a room full of people. I forgot how much it's about the people, not the job as in like, you've got to speak to this person in this way because they will get offended when you give them that note. Whereas this person, I could absolutely slap them in the face with a note and it's water off a duck's back.
That was actually when ironically kind of the fact that I used to be a supervisor somewhere, and you were managing people and a room and expectations the whole time.
And the one thing I do kind of enjoy about hospitality, the timings of it, the amount it's physical and everything. I think knowing that I can do at worst comes to worst, like a 70 odd hour week, of late nights and whatever and still genuinely survive and half enjoy it means that I know I can do it.
And then the children's parties, it’s very interesting. Kids are just the biggest immediate feedback. If they do not like you, if they do not find you funny, if they do not find you engaging, they will tell you. And I think, just that immediacy. And obviously it doesn't apply to maybe normal theatre, but especially if it ever teeters into like cabaret, comedy, anything that's audience interactive. That skill set of like being able to immediately read people and go, okay, do I need to push it? Do I need to rein it in?
I wonder if you guys could speak about what your creative partnership gives you in terms of creatives.
N: To be honest, for me, it's been the biggest blessing of the last year and a half that we've kind of been working together, in the sense that as collaborative as our industry is and, you constantly meet people and you constantly work with them. To find someone whose taste you really trust and who has the same values when it comes to working together. I mean, Helen mentioned it - literally just the bare minimum of immediately replying to an email.
It’s a rare occurrence in that line of work and just being as passionate about - if you meet someone who's as passionate about your work as you are about theirs it's such a wonderful safety blanket. Even if it's just as simple as when either of us has a creative tailspin, to literally just be able to turn to the person who's like, should be like - no, cool, good, that's all I need to hear.
H: Yeah, 100%. I think the reason why the partnership is so successful is we complement each other. We have an ethos that because we spend all of our time dreaming about what we’re going to be doing in 20 years with our incredibly successful production company. We reply to everything and we treat everything like we are as successful as we’re going to be.
But then, I think what's really nice is that then there is still that nice amount of difference. For example, especially when it comes to script stuff, we have slightly different writing styles. Which is why as a production company, it works really well. But then as a creative collaboration, there's a nice amount of kind of difference and even slightly different skill sets. So I think that balance feels like a lottery win in how many people are in this industry.
N: And it's a really lovely combination of lack of ego and trust in the other person in the sense that we work on each other's material. We've been so collaborative in our writing and it's never been like, but this is my play or this is my work. We just try to make the best work possible, whether it's our own or the people we work with who send scripts our way.
Do you have any advice for anyone looking to pursue a creative career?
H: I think it's twofold. Obviously, currently, my main piece of advice would be find your people. This partnership has pushed my career more than I could have ever dreamed. Because I think making your own work, it's so infuriating if you're not getting a job and people say, just make your own work. And you're like, why are you making that sound simple? But when you surround yourself by the right people, it becomes incredibly more possible. I'm not saying it's definitive, but it becomes incredibly more possible.
But then also, I think one thing that I've really enjoyed learning is that, even my first play, my first play is literally set in a pub. It's now something we're rewriting for screen. I would have had none of that knowledge that there wouldn't be a truthful story if I'd had the success that I thought I absolutely deserved age 20, 21. And I think now I'm a way better writer because I've had life experience because things have taken time. I’ve met my right people. I've grown up.
And I think really sadly, because I am one of the most impatient people on the planet, it's learning that this career takes patience. But actually, if you can utilize that and really embrace that, it becomes the joy of it rather than the frustrating thing.
What is your creative dream?
H: Really simple - to earn my money from this industry. It'd be nice to be like not even well known, just respected within the industry to therefore have the ease of putting work on. But if I can wholly pay my paycheck and my life with what I love doing in the world, I'm a happy gal.
What is your dream day job?
H: I think what I'd love to expand on is maybe - the day job is kind of maybe the writing and even just kind of running the company. Having the time to run the company and do it all properly rather than doing it at 2am after a shift at the pub.
And I think, doing that during the day to maybe then head off to rehearsals or plan the next projects and that kind of writing. Making this company successful that it needs my time and it can pay for that time would be the goal.
Nikoletta, do you have any advice for anyone looking to pursue a creative career?
N: I’d say be open to following the path wherever it may lead you. Because I think, especially in the UK, there's this fear, if you do acting, and then you discover writing for yourself, that suddenly people will only see you as a writer or will only see you as this other thing and you'll lose your status or your foothold in a different part of this creative process. When really one feeds the other.
Like not only have I learned so much from doing so many different jobs within the creative industry, it's gotten me more work. Writing my own stuff has then led to directing jobs, which have then led to acting jobs. You know, it just kind of goes round and round and round.
So don't close yourself off from new opportunities that might be slightly different to what you had in mind originally.
And going off of that, what is your creative dream?
N: Much like Helen, I just really want to do this full time. I will be greedy. I want to, you know, push myself. I want us to be pushed to extremes that we never imagined with bigger budgets, bigger responsibilities, bigger risks. But just because that's the fun, isn't it? Just constantly learning and pushing yourself to do things you never thought you'd be capable of doing and suddenly the challenges you had yesterday that seemed like mountains seem like molehills. Everything gets harder in terms of scope, but hopefully also more exciting.
Finally, what is your dream day job?
N: Like I would love for all of the things to be my day job. I'll be acting in one project and then I'll need some time off and I'll just go and do some writing. And then I'll feel the need to have a bit of control again and I'll have to direct an extra project. Just kind of tap in tap out of all the different avenues.
And for us to just grow this project to a point that then opens all kinds of other doors. Not only just for us, but all the mates we've brought along on the way and who we’re now paying so little, and hopefully be able to give them the world at some point.
That's one of the best parts about doing your own stuff, isn't it? Is bringing your friends along and casting who you want to cast and working with the people you want to work with.
I think it's honestly the only control you have in this industry. In terms of any project you ever work on, you can have a great director on board, great actors, a great script. It can still just be utter trash. But the one thing you do have control over is to bring on people that you enjoy working with, that you trust.
I do believe that if everyone you bring on board is as passionate as you are and is as great as their job as you'd like to think you are yours, something worthwhile is going to come out of it at the end. Whether it's exactly what you pictured in terms of product or success is irrelevant, as long as everyone's heart is in the right place, as sappy as that sounds. And you'll just have a good time regardless and, you know, feel fulfilled at the end of it.
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